A Conversation Across Ways of Knowing & Relating to Land

Speaker biographies

ELDER DR. DAVE COURCHENE

Known to many as Nii Gaani Aki Inini (Leading Earth Man), Dave Courchene has touched many lives through his teachings. A respected Elder and knowledge keeper of the Anishinaabe Nation, he has devoted his life to creating a healthy environment for current and future generations, carrying messages of hope and peace around the globe, and learning the knowledge and traditions of Indigenous Peoples around the world. Serving as a member of the Wisdom Keepers of the United Nations since 1992, he has acted in an advisory capacity to the UN in areas of spirituality and sustainable environmental stewardship. In his efforts to bring a message of peace and hope to the world, Elder Courchene founded Turtle Lodge International Centre for Indigenous Education and Wellness – a partner in the Reconciling Ways of Knowing: Indigenous Knowledge and Science project – as a place of learning, healing and sharing for all people, in 2002. He has built alliances with institutions, academics, and policymakers across the country, and is known for his ability to inspire dialogue and cross-cultural understanding. Elder Courchene’s work has been recognized with many prestigious honours, including, most recently, an Honorary Doctor of Laws from the University of Winnipeg.
 

GRANDMOTHER KATHERINE WHITECLOUD

Katherine Whitecloud is a mother, grandmother, community leader and knowledge keeper from Wipazoka Wakpa Dakota Nation. Chosen at the age of 16 to represent her people, she has been a spokesperson for her Nation for over 30 years. Over this time, she has worked for her community in several roles, including as Chief and Director of Education, and with a focus on Indigenous health and wellness. She was also Chief Executive Officer of the Assembly of First Nations, Director of the Assembly of Manitoba Chiefs, and Manitoba Regional Chief of the Assembly of First Nations. Her work lies in ensuring the life and teachings articulated and envisioned by her forefathers are honoured and protected. Knowledge keeper Katherine Whitecloud is a member of the Turtle Lodge National Council of Elders and Knowledge Keepers. She is currently engaged in drawing on the knowledge of Indigenous knowledge keepers worldwide to build greater momentum for Indigenous-led Indigenous health systems across the country.
 

THE HONOURABLE CAROLYN BENNETT

The Honourable Carolyn Bennett was first elected to the House of Commons in 1997 and is Minister of Crown-Indigenous Relations Canada. She represents the federal riding of Toronto—St. Paul’s. She previously served as the federal Minister of State for Public Health. She has also served as the critic for Public Health, Seniors, Persons with Disabilities, the Social Economy, and Aboriginal Affairs. Prior to her election as Member of Parliament in 1997, Minister Bennett was a family physician and a founding partner of Bedford Medical Associates in downtown Toronto. She was also an Assistant Professor in the Department of Family and Community Medicine at the University of Toronto. Her fight to save the Women’s College Hospital of Toronto inspired her to enter politics. Minister Bennett is an active representative of Toronto—St. Paul’s. She has organized over 75 town halls, quarterly meetings, information sessions, and special activities for her constituents since 2000. She and her office have assisted hundreds of constituents with their immigration, tax, pension, or employment insurance concerns.

THE HONOURABLE HARRY SLADE

Justice Slade was admitted to the Bar of British Columbia in 1974. His primary area of practice as a lawyer was Aboriginal Law. He has extensive experience in Specific Claims negotiation, including the British Columbia cut-off land claims. He was active in the litigation of Aboriginal law issues, including representation of national and provincial First Nations organizations on interventions before the Supreme Court of Canada in seminal cases concerned with S. 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982. His work included intergovernmental relations among First Nations, Canada and Provinces, including Treaty processes, self-government initiatives, and commercial development of reserve lands. As a lawyer, Justice Slade also worked with First Nations on ventures in forestry, fishing, and energy resource development. He practiced law at Ratcliff & Company, a North Vancouver, British Columbia, law firm with an extensive aboriginal and environmental law practice. Justice Slade was appointed Queen’s Counsel in 1998 and became a Justice of the British Columbia Supreme Court in March 2001. The Governor in Council initially appointed Justice Slade to the Specific Claims Tribunal as a Tribunal Member on November 26, 2009. He was appointed Chairperson on December 11, 2010. When Justice Slade volunteered, the Chief Justice of the BC Supreme Court nominated him for reappointments. He has since been re-appointed Chairperson for two consecutive five-year terms, the most recent of which commenced on December 11, 2015 and ended on December 11, 2020.
 

DR. FIKRET BERKES

Dr. Berkes is an applied ecologist by background and works at the interface of natural and social sciences. Educated at McGill University (B.Sc. 1968, Ph.D. Marine Sciences 1973), he joined the University of Manitoba in 1991 as Director of the Natural Resources Institute, a position he occupied until 1996. He was appointed Tier I Canada Research Chair in Community-based Resource Management, awarded in 2002 and renewed in 2009. In 2016, he became Distinguished Professor Emeritus. Dr. Berkes has devoted most of his professional life to investigating the relations between societies and their resources, and to examining the conditions under which the “tragedy of the commons” may be avoided. He works on theoretical and practical aspects of community-based management, co-management, traditional knowledge, and social-ecological resilience. He has served as the President of the International Association for the Study of Common Property (1996-98) and as the leader of a number of research groups, primarily around the commons, with emphasis on adaptive co-management, complex systems/resilience, and indigenous knowledge. His publications include the books, Sacred Ecology (Routledge, 2008), Breaking Ice (U Calgary Press, 2005), Navigating Social-Ecological Systems (Cambridge U Press, 2003), and Managing Small-Scale Fisheries (IDRC, 2001).
 

DR. NANCY TURNER

Dr. Nancy Turner is an ethnobotanist whose research integrates the fields of botany and ecology with anthropology, geography and linguistics, amongst others. She is interested in the traditional knowledge systems and traditional land and resource management systems of Indigenous Peoples, particularly in western Canada. She has worked with Indigenous Elders and cultural specialists in northwestern North America for over 40 years, collaborating with Indigenous communities to help document, retain and promote their traditional knowledge of plants and habitats, including Indigenous foods, materials and medicines, as well as language and vocabulary relating to plants and environments. Her interests also include the roles of plants and animals in narratives, ceremonies, language and belief systems.

DR. DAVID SUZUKI

Dr. David Suzuki is a father, grandfather, environmental activist, and an award-winning geneticist and broadcaster, known particularly for his roles in the CBC Radio show Quirks and Quarks and CBC Television’s The Nature of Things. He is widely recognized as a world leader in sustainable ecology and has received numerous awards for his work, including a UNESCO prize for science and a United Nations Environment Program medal. Along with his partner, Tara Cullis, Miles Richardson, and others, he helped co-found the David Suzuki Foundation in 1990. For his support of Canada’s Indigenous peoples, Suzuki has been honoured with eight names and formal adoption by two First Nations.
 

MILES RICHARDSON, O.C.

Miles G. Richardson, OC, is a citizen of the Haida Nation and Canada. In 1984, he was the youngest person to be elected President of the Council of the Haida Nation (CHN), a position he held until 1996. As President of the CHN, Mr. Richardson led the drafting of the Constitution of the Haida Nation; development of the first comprehensive Haida Nation land and marine use plan, enacted under Haida law; and negotiation of the Gwaii Haanas Agreement, the first Nation-to-Nation agreement between the Haida Nation and Canada, which protected the Gwaii Haanas area of his people’s homeland, Haida Gwaii. Mr. Richardson was a member of the BC Claims Task Force, a delegate of the First Nations Summit Task Group, and later Commissioner and then Chief Commissioner of the BC Treaty Commission. In 2007, Mr. Richardson was named an Officer of the Order of Canada. He is a founding Director of the David Suzuki Foundation, having served on its Board of Directors since its incorporation in 1990, and has served on numerous other boards and societies. He currently serves as Director of the National Consortium on Indigenous Economic Development.

Questions from participants at the live session

Q: Why does the Crown continue to privilege control and Eurocentric jurisdiction above Indigenous laws?

A: This is an ongoing problem as a result of Confederation happening without Indigenous participation and consent, and thus being set up under an entirely Western / Eurocentric intellectual framework / way of knowing. Our project, Reconciling Ways of Knowing: Indigenous Knowledge and Science, has been created with the purpose of facilitating a conversation on a national scale across ways of knowing, to help change this – to help change structures, decision-making processes, thinking, and relationships between Indigenous Peoples and Canada, including its formal institutions of state, civil society and the public. There are signs of some change that have already been underway, and we hope to amplify, deepen and accelerate these changes by bringing more people into the conversation. Change must happen institutionally and within society.

Q: This is such an important topic. But I am constantly frustrated by the short-sightedness of elected officials who seem to see only short-term wealth rather than any consideration for the interconnected web. How do everyday citizens make a difference to encourage consideration and incorporate Indigenous knowledge into protection of existing green spaces (e.g., paving over green lands in Ontario)?

A: Our best advice is to organize with your like-minded community members and expand the circle of care, concern, and relationships. This might include organizing a discussion group in your community that could bring together readings or speakers to give more people around you the opportunity to learn; talking to or joining local or regional conservation organizations and help them build / strengthen relations with local Indigenous Peoples and knowledge keepers. All of us working together where we are with the gifts we have can make a big difference. And do some research on the duties owed to Indigenous Peoples under treaties and our constitutional relationships and write to and meet with your elected officials to both educate them and let them know how important respectful relationships with Indigenous Peoples are to their constituents.

Q: What is the place of treaties in the context of Indigenous rights? Will these be honoured?

A: Treaties are part of the constitution of this country, as envisaged by the Royal Proclamation, 1763, and the wave of treaty making that followed upon it. This pre-confederal relationship (as described by the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples) between Indigenous Peoples and Canada is the foundation upon which Canada rests. They are also recognized in Section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982. Each treaty is unique between the particular Indigenous Peoples who negotiated them and the Crown, and thus defines unique rights for the Indigenous Peoples involved. Interpreting what those rights are requires an understanding far beyond the text of the treaty, which in most cases does not capture the entirety of the understanding and agreement between the parties. It involves understanding the oral traditions and legal customs of the Indigenous Peoples involved for a fulsome understanding of what was agreed. To properly honour these agreements, Canadian interpreters, whether they be government policy and decision makers, courts, or others in civil society, must move beyond the text to this more holistic understanding of what was actually agreed.

Q: Humans have brought the planet to this point, especially since the beginning of industrialization in what is termed ‘the First World.’ How does Indigenous knowledge / philosophy / science understand and challenge our current dominant economic system (capitalism), which is based on unfettered resource extraction and production / consumption patterns that are leading to climate change and other negative environmental / social / cultural impacts?

A: First and foremost it is important to recognize the diversity of Indigenous knowledge systems and ways of knowing. It is not possible or respectful to offer a universalistic answer of how all Indigenous knowledge would approach any question. A common theme that many speakers have identified, however, is an understanding of human relationality and interconnection to all of creation.

Q: We talk about respecting indigenous people's rights but that's not quite right, it's responsibilities. And not just responsibilities of Indigenous people but also non-Indigenous people 'so called Canadians'. If we engage in collaborative efforts to manage our collective responsibilities it shifts it just so. Takes us forward. Don't you think?

A: All Peoples of the Earth have responsibilities. Recognizing this and working together to implement our collective responsibilities is the best way to ensure our collective survival and wellbeing and that of the planet and the diversity of life it sustains.

Q: What are the impacts of the doctrines of “terra nullius” and others in the Papal Bulls in court decisions in relations to land? If Indigenous people are recognized as the First Peoples on this land, where is their voice in decision making in regards to lands and resources?

A: While the courts have said that the doctrine of terra nullius does not exist in Canadian law, a number of scholars (e.g., Joshua Ben David Nichols, A Reconciliation Without Recollection? An Investigation of the Foundations of Aboriginal Law in Canada (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 2020) contend that the way that the courts have interpreted s. 91(24) of the Constitution Act, 1867 – i.e., how the courts have interpreted the status of Indigenous Peoples with respect to the Canadian state and legal system – belies the doctrine’s staying power within contemporary Canadian jurisprudence.

Q: This is a discussion about a system we never wanted or asked to be a part of. The existential “threat” is a threat to the colonial system. Perhaps we should see the climate crisis as an existential opportunity to transform how know and be in the world.

A: In the face of the climate crisis, biodiversity crisis, and damaged relationships with each other, we must reckon with the need to transform how we know and be in the world.

Q: Do you think there will ever be a time where Indigenous science, governance and land tenure systems will become equal to settler science, governance, and management?

A: We are working to help facilitate this shift, to enable true equity between the ways of knowing and governing of Indigenous Peoples and Canadians. If we all participate in this process and build greater understanding within ourselves, our communities, and areas of practice / systems within which we work and have an impact, then we can continue to bring this state of equity and respect about.

Q: "If treaties are to be truly recognized is it not incumbent on the Canadian government to release title, hence control of the land and return decision making about the land to Indigenous Peoples?

A: Understanding what was agreed as part of a treaty, or what its terms are, requires an understanding beyond the text. This may indeed affect title to land and thus the decision-making role of Indigenous Peoples with respect to such land.

Q: Will there be a youth perspective or forum on ways of knowing in regards to this awesome sharing? Would love a panel focused on youth/the intergenerational piece.

A: Yes, this is a very important part of what we are seeking to do in this project and plan to ensure youth perspectives and intergenerational knowledge sharing are brought forward and facilitated in our programming, including at the in-person events we are planning once it is safe to meet again in person.

Q: I am wondering about Indigenous knowledges being treated as a resource that can be mined and extracted for exploitation and profit by Western science and Western technologies?

A: This is definitely an issue of concern and an problem Indigenous Peoples have been experiencing from the exploration and colonization periods into the present, a time in which legal protections for Indigenous knowledge are weak, legal protections for scientific intellectual property are growing stronger, and commercial incentives for knowledge appropriation are continually escalating. Our goal in this project has not been to facilitate such extraction, but to centre relationships. What we are working to convey is not how science can use Indigenous knowledge (as if it was a “thing”) to save the world, or be a means to an end, but how scientists or those working from a scientific worldview can engage in respectful relationships with Indigenous knowledge keepers appropriately, to address our shared challenges together, ethically. We would recommend you watch our Enacting Ethical Space Dialogue held in August 2020 for a deeper discussion of Ethical Space and how to ensure that relations between ways of knowing is not extractive, but founded on and enacting good and respectful relationships.

Q: What do you think about the idea Mark Carney, economist and former Governor of the Banks of Canada and England, has suggested of building in values of climate and biodiversity into the economic system as a solution to the crises of climate change and biodiversity loss?

A: The idea Mark Carney is suggesting, that the value of all things cannot be rendered monetarily (i.e., that some (many!) things have a value that is not / cannot be reflected monetarily), is shared by many, including Indigenous Peoples, feminists, and others. The more this principle is recognized within decision making systems and structures, the greater chance we will have of restoring / building more harmonious / respectful relationships with the Earth and each other.

Q: Why does the Indian Act still exist?

A: A detailed answer to this question is provided by Joshua Nichols in A Reconciliation Without Recollection?, and is beyond our scope to answer here.

Q: What would engaging in ethical space where Canadian legal system and Indigenous legal orders are working together on the same level (relates to the discussion of consensus). How would recognizing legal pluralism within Canada impact the determination of territory and issues of overlapping claims, given that there are many Indigenous legal orders currently operating?

A: This is a very big and important question that goes to the heart of what nation-to-nation relationships are and should be. In upcoming Dialogues, we will be convening conversations on Nation-to-Nation Relationships Across Ways of Knowing and on Stewarding Relations Across Legal Orders in which the relationships between Peoples and legal systems, and ongoing implications for relationships to land and territory will be further considered. Participating in those sessions will be a good opportunity to address this question further.

Q: Our next 7 generations are 'stuck in the classrooms' - they need to be freed upon the land and the brilliance therein. Sask Curriculum prioritizes the 'science' as western ideology where 'man interacts with nature for the purpose of exploration', which grows into 'meddling with nature', then 'disrespectful practices concerning nature' (natural resources; its hidden treasures) as a sense of ownership. The anthromorphistic nature of Indigenous knowledge ways are essential parts of the curriculum but this way of knowing is 'othered' - not prioritized. The curriculum in itself is generalized in terms of Indigenous ways of knowing and being, while western science approaches are prioritized through an over sense of human's self-interest and sense of ownership through scientific exploration. How do you intend to help change the pedagogical paradigms as these practices will need to be applied immediately?

A: The desire to help change the pedagogical paradigms you describe is a major reason for and purpose of the Reconciling Ways of Knowing: Indigenous Knowledge and Science project. We have been working to develop a wider community of understanding, reflection and transformed relationships. We are also planning a Dialogue on Decolonizing Science Education & Practicing Indigenous Science to open up discussion of these pedagogical paradigms amongst the community we are building. Joining us for this session in the next few months (date TBC) would be a good opportunity to address this question further.

Q: Forests hold so many ecological system services that literally provide us the breath of life and yet we continue to allow logging companies to view a forest purely for how much money they can extract from it. What’s it going to take to shift our approach so as to value forests for the life giving/sustaining services they provide rather than for the dollars and cents that logging companies extract from them?

A: We will be discussing this further in an upcoming Dialogue on Stewarding Relations with Forests and Watersheds.

Q: My PhD research has to do with soil-human engagements (I purposely do not use the term ‘management’). I am interested to know how Indigenous knowledge speaks about ’soils’ and what types of knowledge exist around soils. It may very well be that soils are but one component of ‘land’, but I was wondering if there is anything explicitly about soils?"

A: We are planning a session on Stewarding Relations with Forests and Watershed in the coming months (date TBC), which would provide a good opportunity to address this question further.